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Post by Detroit Pistons on Aug 11, 2008 14:13:24 GMT -5
Detroit, that is fine. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I never asked anyone to agree with me, just posted my thoughts, which is what a TC member is supposed to do. For the record though, in general, to everyone, hasn't Seattle asked that no one other than TC members post in these threads? Just wanna make sure we get that straightened out before too many more people start filling up the thread more than it has been. As far as Charlotte goes, if he really doesn't think I ever explained why I think this deal is unfair then he didn't read my posts. Plain and Simple. There are about 800 words of mine clearly stating how I feel on the trade. Im fine with all the CM's decisions because they are CM's for a reason I just voiced my opinon cuz i really dont think this trade is that bad |
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Post by supremegm - MIA on Aug 11, 2008 14:20:18 GMT -5
From a completely nuetral standpoint...
Charlotte rapes in this deal. I said that in the chat room as soon as I saw it
It really frustrates me when people rip someone off but get all bitchy when the committee declines a trade. The committee knows what they are doing, so let them take a vote, and if your trade gets denied, it gets denied.
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 11, 2008 14:29:13 GMT -5
From a completely nuetral standpoint... Charlotte rapes in this deal. I said that in the chat room as soon as I saw it It really frustrates me when people rip someone off but get all bitchy when the committee declines a trade. The committee knows what they are doing, so let them take a vote, and if your trade gets denied, it gets denied. Thank you...even though your post, and even Detroit's posts shouldn't be allowed  haha I'm gonna just quote my two main posts that say everything I needed to say this whole time. I am holding back temporarily. I really think Caron is a really great player, just rated 2 points less than Pierce, and makes half as much, signed to the same amount of years. I think the two wash each other out, I personally would prefer Caron. Moving on with the deal... James/Anderson/Williams/Meija all expire next year, clearing up about 9.4 million. They're rated 74/68/63/63. Toine/Jones/Jasi also expire next year (basically), clearing up about 14 million. They're rated 70/68/66. So personally I take the superstars as a wash. Then the whole cap situation here...I know they're in here to match up salaries a little...but a 3 man combo worth average of 68 a piece (taking 14 mil off the books), vs a 4 man combo worth avg of 67, a piece (taking 9 mil off the books)...well I personally think that's basically a wash. One side gets one player who is pretty good, but the other side gets more cap space next year. THEN we throw in the #16 pick this year and a future #1? #16 is rated 68 or 67 at worst unless you really reach...and who knows about the #1 in two more years? Probably will be a late 1st, but still. I see this - Charlotte gets one superstar swapped out for a cheaper, younger, just as good superstar (favors Charlotte) Charlotte gets to clear 5 million more cap next year, and really isn't giving up any players that have much value (wash at best, personally favors Charlotte) Charlotte then gets #16 (rated 68) and a future 1st...because what? (obviously in my opinion, this favors Charlotte since it seems like these picks are free) I am gonna see if people agree or disagree with me, but right now I'm leaning reject. Why do these 1sts have to be in here? Am i just valuing Caron too much? Caron - 20 pts, 7 reb, 5 ast, 2.2 STLS, shoots 47% FG, 36% 3pt, 90% FT (28 years old) Pierce - 20 pts, 5 reb, 5 ast, 1.3 STL, shoots 46% FG, 39% 3pt, 84% FT (31 years old in October) yes I know...Pierce had the other 2 of the Big Three...whoopty whoo. Without them he did score about 25 and reb 1 or 2 more boards (which puts him even with Caron in that category). His AST stay the same. BUT, Caron plays with Agent 0 (huge ball hog...really) and Jamison. Not like Caron is the only guy on that team and he's just taking all the shots. I am gonna reject this deal. Final Answer yea...if my post is too wordy, here's how it works. Charlotte gets a younger, cheaper, just as good star in exchange for an older, twice as expensive star. Charlotte clears 5 million this year in cap. Charlotte clears 5 million MORE next year in cap. Charlotte then also gets 2 draft picks for his trouble. Cavs get, IMO, a decent player in Mike James...but that's the only part of this he wins, and even then he has to take on way too much cap to only win that. Sorry Kitties, I like you, but this is too much. That's all I have got to say. One man's opinion, though the only other TC member to say anything also agrees. |
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Post by Detroit Pistons on Aug 11, 2008 14:31:09 GMT -5
and cha if the trade dosent work out u can just work out a new one with clev |
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Post by Charlotte Bobcats on Aug 11, 2008 14:58:39 GMT -5
From a completely nuetral standpoint... Charlotte rapes in this deal. I said that in the chat room as soon as I saw it It really frustrates me when people rip someone off but get all bitchy when the committee declines a trade. The committee knows what they are doing, so let them take a vote, and if your trade gets denied, it gets denied. I'm not as smart as you think then because all I know is CLE is getting better now and I am trying to build for the future. I'd admit when I rape someone but this is 100% fair without the 2010 1st, even though no one cares about that yet they do. |
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 11, 2008 15:27:30 GMT -5
What I meant when (if) I said I don't care about the 2010 1st is that in this deal, taking it out is not going to change my reject.
It's likely the pick will be worth a 67 rated player...or lower, as Cleveland is a pretty decent team already. It's just far off and the value of it is fairly small.
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Post by Charlotte Bobcats on Aug 11, 2008 15:44:11 GMT -5
What I meant when (if) I said I don't care about the 2010 1st is that in this deal, taking it out is not going to change my reject. It's likely the pick will be worth a 67 rated player...or lower, as Cleveland is a pretty decent team already. It's just far off and the value of it is fairly small. Then I don't see your beef at all..... Saranus for DA = Fair Pierce for Damon Jones and Butler = Fair Walker and 16 for Mike James = Fair That's pretty much the trade, I don't see why it's getting rejected. I mean you are a pretty smart guy 90% of the time, why don't you put a deal on the table you think is fair because imo there no way without either pick in it I'm doing it. |
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Post by supremegm - MIA on Aug 11, 2008 15:47:32 GMT -5
Hmm, I actually need to withdraw my comment earlier
This isn't a bad trade.. for some reason I was thinking Cleveland was taking on a bunch of salary for next season
Anyway, Butler + a lotto pick for pierce is fair... the 2010 first isnt too bad. I think Pierce is much better than Butler (maybe not in a sim league), and I would do this same trade if I were Cleveland
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Post by Cleveland Cavaliers on Aug 11, 2008 15:55:20 GMT -5
From a completely nuetral standpoint... Charlotte rapes in this deal. I said that in the chat room as soon as I saw it It really frustrates me when people rip someone off but get all bitchy when the committee declines a trade. The committee knows what they are doing, so let them take a vote, and if your trade gets denied, it gets denied. Thank you...even though your post, and even Detroit's posts shouldn't be allowed haha I'm gonna just quote my two main posts that say everything I needed to say this whole time. yea...if my post is too wordy, here's how it works. Charlotte gets a younger, cheaper, just as good star in exchange for an older, twice as expensive star. Charlotte clears 5 million this year in cap. Charlotte clears 5 million MORE next year in cap. Charlotte then also gets 2 draft picks for his trouble. Cavs get, IMO, a decent player in Mike James...but that's the only part of this he wins, and even then he has to take on way too much cap to only win that. Sorry Kitties, I like you, but this is too much. That's all I have got to say. One man's opinion, though the only other TC member to say anything also agrees. Clipps you are full of shit. First of all, you say that the stars are a wash...then you say the rest of the deal is a wash, except for the picks. Then you go on and say the picks don't matter, and Charlotte wins both the star part and the rest of the deal. I win the star part now. I win the rest of the trade now. I get Paul Pierce, who is better than Butler. (BTW, Arenas was injured half the season so you comparing Butler, Arenas and Jamison to Pierce Garnett and Allen is COMPLETELY BS. Like i said before cap room is overrated. I can still re-sign Brand next year with this deal, and thats all i really care about cap wise. Because in order to be taken seriously in the free agent market, you have to destroy your team, finish last in the league, and have like 50 million in cap space to dish out to free agents. I was a sixth seed last year, and i gave Detroit a little bit of a run. SO, im not about to rebuild. Meanwhile, Charlotte wins the trade for the future, he's rebuilding. I win the trade now. It's really quite simpe. Im trying to win now. Charlotte's in rebuilding mode. |
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Post by Atlanta Hawks on Aug 11, 2008 16:21:09 GMT -5
The illiteracy in this league is staggering. This deal imo is unfair. Butler is just as good as Pierce (better imo since he actually carried a team to the playoffs) and is both younger and cheaper. How can Pierce be better especially in a sim league where those factors matter?
Clearing more cap room is also going to favor the team that is clearing MORE cap room. Jesusweasels, how can anyone think differently. The draft picks aren't trade fodder and are valuable but don't make much sense to add to this deal. IMO, that is the most lopsided part of the deal.
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Post by Cleveland Cavaliers on Aug 11, 2008 16:27:34 GMT -5
The illiteracy in this league is staggering. This deal imo is unfair. Butler is just as good as Pierce (better imo since he actually carried a team to the playoffs) and is both younger and cheaper. How can Pierce be better especially in a sim league where those factors matter? Clearing more cap room is also going to favor the team that is clearing MORE cap room. Jesusweasels, how can anyone think differently. The draft picks aren't trade fodder and are valuable but don't make much sense to add to this deal. IMO, that is the most lopsided part of the deal. Pierce did that all the time before Garnett and Allen. He's THREE YEARS YOUNGER. And really the only thing that matters in the sim league is the ratings, and Pierce is an 89. Butler is an 87 (A Boosted 87 at that). And while were talking about ratings, I improve my starting lineup by 69-68-87-91-82 to 74-74-89-91-80 in this offseason. Can somebody please comment on my arguments, because i think they explain alot....Atlanta and Clippers just like having cap room, while other teams like to win. A fine line inbetween. |
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Post by Charlotte Bobcats on Aug 11, 2008 16:54:03 GMT -5
The illiteracy in this league is staggering. This deal imo is unfair. Butler is just as good as Pierce (better imo since he actually carried a team to the playoffs) and is both younger and cheaper. How can Pierce be better especially in a sim league where those factors matter? Clearing more cap room is also going to favor the team that is clearing MORE cap room. Jesusweasels, how can anyone think differently. The draft picks aren't trade fodder and are valuable but don't make much sense to add to this deal. IMO, that is the most lopsided part of the deal. Pierce is just as good as Butler? How many rings does Butler have? How many Finals MVP's? Yes he's younger and cheaper but it came out of the Cavs mouth "I want to win now" so at the moment Pierce is the better player. I think Pierce may go up a little more to be honest with you. Okay so Mr. "Cap space is god" how come you said you would do Dyess for Yi? To resign Dyess I probably about $6,500,000 this year and Yi makes 2 something, so why don't you make up your mind. OR could just use the logic that you like to use "at least Hortford is good!" |
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Post by Charlotte Bobcats on Aug 11, 2008 16:57:26 GMT -5
Pierce did that all the time before Garnett and Allen. He's THREE YEARS YOUNGER. And really the only thing that matters in the sim league is the ratings, and Pierce is an 89. Butler is an 87 (A Boosted 87 at that). And while were talking about ratings, I improve my starting lineup by 69-68-87-91-82 to 74-74-89-91-80 in this offseason. Can somebody please comment on my arguments, because i think they explain alot....Atlanta and Clippers just like having cap room, while other teams like to win. A fine line inbetween. I don't really know Atlanta so I won't comment on him (though I find it funny he wants Dyess for Yi and is now bitching about cap space? go figure.) As far as the Clippers I know him, he's a big fan of young players and I get where he is coming from as I know his style of GMing. You are 100% right he is trying to be the Cavs GM when he isn't. I like the Clippers don't get me wrong but I think at some point he's going to realize that he's wrong about this as far as being on the TC. Now if he was the Cavs GM would he be doing this? No. |
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Post by Atlanta Hawks on Aug 11, 2008 17:01:53 GMT -5
What is your problem? Gotta love getting attacked for my gm philosophy when I was forced to rebuild when I took over the Hawks. Yes, I would do Dice for Yi b/c Dice is a better player and I have the cap space. All this whining and complaining because people don't agree with you. You need to grow up.
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Post by Charlotte Bobcats on Aug 11, 2008 17:08:39 GMT -5
What is your problem? Gotta love getting attacked for my gm philosophy when I was forced to rebuild when I took over the Hawks. Yes, I would do Dice for Yi b/c Dice is a better player and I have the cap space. All this whining and complaining because people don't agree with you. You need to grow up. If you are over the cap you get MLE either way, it doesn't matter if you are over the cap by 1 M or 1000 M (assuming there is no hard cap.) Cleveland is over the cap and has made it known A. he is winning now and B. He's not trying to clear cap space, which would be hard with the stars he has. I could see you saying you don't agree with this trade but to say it's unfair is a bit of a stretch. You also showed yourself as a hypocrite because the difference between Yi and Dyess salary is WAY more valuable to you than the difference between the salaries being trading to CLE and the salaries being traded to CHA because LIKE I SAID IT DOES HIM NO GOOD, HE'S OVER THE CAP. To take Pierce he is going to have to gain about 11 M over the next few years, he made a choice and for you to say it's "Jesusweasels, how can anyone think differently" is bogus. Let him run his team, there no unfair about the deal. Hes a good GM, i've know him and have all the faith in the world in him. I also am not "crying" I want everyone to know everything they can about this trade (why it was rejected by UTA and LAC, how I feel about it, CLE feels about it, how it will impact our teams in the short run, how it will impact our teams in the long run, etc) so when ORL, SEA, CHI, and NOH vote on it they will have the facts and can make the best decision. If they veto it I obviously strongly disagree but will have to figure something out. |
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 11, 2008 17:24:03 GMT -5
Ok first of all, I am not trying to GM Cleveland's team.
I am on the TC. Part of my job is to accept trades that are fair, and reject trades that are unfair. Just like the other TC members. I see this deal, I broke it down big time, and what I came out with is that it is unfair. Take the picks out and it's good.
You kept saying I was undervaluing Mike James, when in fact you were giving the cap space basically no value. It has HUGE value.
I have no trade proposal that would be better for Cleveland's team, because I'm NOT GM'ing his team. I simply see this trade, and once again broke it down and saw that it was unfair, in my opinion. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. Just voicing my opinion, which is why I'm here :-)
I find it kinda unfair that you all think all I would ever wanna do with a team is rebuild it. Look at my team in Rimrockers. I never rebuilt that. If I would have wanted to, I obviously could have.
Stop bashing me because I saw my team in this league, saw that NOH had a ridiculous team and other teams were clearly better than mine, and decided to rebuild it. Also, that's generally the way I like to run/build my teams. I like young players. So shoot me.
Bottom line, I personally find the deal unfair. Hence the reject.
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Post by Atlanta Hawks on Aug 11, 2008 17:26:54 GMT -5
First of all you must not know the definition of the word hypocrite because I never and have never said having cap room is the be all and end all. I like to have cap room and what I was forced to do in this sim league with my team doesn't concern you and has no bearing on this trade so stop bringing it up. It is a personal attack and you don't want me pissed at you. You also need to stop putting words in my mouth and distorting what I say or have said. The jesusweasels comment was about Butler being the better sim league player since he is younger, cheaper, and relatively close in rating (two points less). You can't argue that. It is a fact. Oh, and you are crying. This last post proves it. You can't handle other people disagreeing with you and you have to go on a rant about how wrong they are.
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Post by Charlotte Bobcats on Aug 11, 2008 17:28:03 GMT -5
Ok first of all, I am not trying to GM Cleveland's team. I am on the TC. Part of my job is to accept trades that are fair, and reject trades that are unfair. Just like the other TC members. I see this deal, I broke it down big time, and what I came out with is that it is unfair. Take the picks out and it's good. You kept saying I was undervaluing Mike James, when in fact you were giving the cap space basically no value. It has HUGE value. I have no trade proposal that would be better for Cleveland's team, because I'm NOT GM'ing his team. I simply see this trade, and once again broke it down and saw that it was unfair, in my opinion. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. Just voicing my opinion, which is why I'm here :-) I find it kinda unfair that you all think all I would ever wanna do with a team is rebuild it. Look at my team in Rimrockers. I never rebuilt that. If I would have wanted to, I obviously could have. Stop bashing me because I saw my team in this league, saw that NOH had a ridiculous team and other teams were clearly better than mine, and decided to rebuild it. Also, that's generally the way I like to run/build my teams. I like young players. So shoot me. Bottom line, I personally find the deal unfair. Hence the reject. So if I take a bad salary you'll quit bitching? I'm trying hard to see this from your point of view.... |
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Post by Charlotte Bobcats on Aug 11, 2008 17:30:46 GMT -5
First of all you must not know the definition of the word hypocrite because I never and have never said having cap room is the be all and end all. I like to have cap room and what I was forced to do in this sim league with my team doesn't concern you and has no bearing on this trade so stop bringing it up. It is a personal attack and you don't want me pissed at you. You also need to stop putting words in my mouth and distorting what I say or have said. The jesusweasels comment was about Butler being the better sim league player since he is younger, cheaper, and relatively close in rating (two points less). You can't argue that. It is a fact. Oh, and you are crying. This last post proves it. You can't handle other people disagreeing with you and you have to go on a rant about how wrong they are. I don't want to piss you off, is that a threat? What are you gonna come beat me up? If that's not a personal attack I don't know what is. I'll tell you straight you aren't on the trade committee and I don't give a ratass if I piss you off or not. I'm not mad at anyone, a little irritated but after this is resolved I got nothing against anyone. |
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 11, 2008 17:36:09 GMT -5
I'm the one "bitching" haha
My JOB here (part of it anyway) is to judge trades. I judge this one unfair. ATL is right. You're going off on personal attacks and trying to confuse the issue at hand, which is simply that this trade is unfair. I have already rejected it and nothing will change it. Stop being a baby.
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