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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 13, 2008 10:04:06 GMT -5
Just putting this over here since it has no effect on the trade and I know Orlando will not want more debate in that thread, in truth I don't want more debate over in that thread either. So here is my question.
New Orleans claims that the salaries in that trade favor Cleveland.
I just wanna know how much drinking you must've been doing late at night even if you were tired as hell, to think the salaries favor Cleveland in that trade? haha that's partially a joke...but partially serious.
Charlotte clears cap this year, and he clears MORE cap next year. And Charlotte gets the star that is 9 million cheaper that produces about the same.
Like I said, we're all entitled to our opinions, I have no problem with the outcome of that trade (it passed). I disagree with it being passed but I understand the system so that's no problem, for real, I'm not trying to change anything there.
Just curious what about the salaries made you think it favored Cleveland?
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Post by New Jersey Nets on Aug 13, 2008 10:10:34 GMT -5
Ill have to agree with LAC...Cavs are trading a great expiring (walker) and Butler who has a greeat salary IMO, while getting 19M for next year in ONE GUY...well thats my opinion
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 13, 2008 10:14:44 GMT -5
To Philly - Caron has been upping his production the past few years even with Arenas in the lineup. It's called hitting your prime, he's just entered his, Pierce is in the tail end of his.
Stats (in this league) Pierce - 17.8, 6.3, 4.0, 1.64, .78, shot 48% FG, 34% 3pt, 80% FT Butler - 18.0, 7.1, 1.3, 1.3, 1.74, shot 55% FG, 38% 3pt, 86% FT
Pierce was the #1 option and best player on his team Butler was the #3 scoring option, and 2nd best rated player on his team.
I think MAYBE you should rethink your whole Pierce > Butler thing...cuz I'm not seeing it. Pierce wins in Ast (best player on team, no one else doing anything passing the ball either), and slightly in steals (which doesn't make sense but whatever), while Butler wins slightly in points (as the 3rd option, not the 1st like Pierce), Reb, Blk, and all the shooting percentages.
Basically, Caron Butler is underrated IRL, and in this game, and by some members of the league.
:-) That's my opinion anyway.
EDIT: Oh I almost forgot somehow...even though Butler seems to at LEAST produce equally to Pierce in this league (while being the 3rd option and not the 1st), Butler makes 9 million while Pierce makes 18...hrmmmmm
That's all for now.
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Post by Philadelphia 76ers on Aug 13, 2008 10:19:03 GMT -5
Like I said before, Pierce is on the same team as KG and Allen while Butler only has Jamison this past season. Pierce is the better playoff performer which is what Cleveland needs right now since he wants to win-now. Butler might be better in a few years but right now, Pierce is the clear choice IMO.
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Post by Charlotte Bobcats on Aug 13, 2008 10:20:02 GMT -5
Only thing I have to say about this is, Aaron Rogers is still the starting for the Greenbay Packers
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Post by New Jersey Nets on Aug 13, 2008 10:23:15 GMT -5
Only thing I have to say about this is, Aaron Rogers is still the starting for the Greenbay Packers That explains a lot in this thread
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 13, 2008 10:25:20 GMT -5
That's Charlotte's way of saying "ha ha, neener neener neener I win in trades always and fool people about why i do things!" Just rubbing our faces in it.
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Post by supremegm - MIA on Aug 13, 2008 10:28:22 GMT -5
I dont really see why this trade is so bad.... Caron + 16th overall for Pierce is a pretty good trade
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 13, 2008 10:37:00 GMT -5
First off to Miami, I'm currently not discussing the trade. I'm discussing Pierce vs. Butler. So here goes some more.
since you still aren't giving Butler credit after I showed he is equal to Pierce IRL, equal to Pierce in this game...because you say Butler only put up his stats w/o Arenas...
06/07 with Gilbert healthy Caron - 19.1, 7.4, 3.7, 2.1, .3 - 46% FG, 25% 3pt, 86% FT 07/08 w/o gilbert mostly Caron - 20.3, 6.7, 4.9, 2.2, .3 - 46% FG, 36% 3pt, 90% FT
So...I once again see Caron as producing similar to Pierce, plus also developing a better 3pt shot. So he's getting better from already being as good, IMO.
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Post by supremegm - MIA on Aug 13, 2008 10:46:55 GMT -5
so you are judging a trade based entirely on your personal bias towards players... the fact is, the world acknowledges Pierce as the superior player to Butler, and he will be rated higher in this sim league for a long time
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 13, 2008 10:52:11 GMT -5
Umm, no most of what I judged that trade on was the salary Charlotte was clearing helped him out IMMENSELY! And he got picks, and then traded one star for an equally talented star.
Also, if you can read, I said I am doing this thread basically as a Pierce/Butler comparison.
Pierce is a more talented scorer, but I think Butler is easily as good of a player overall. But most of the mainstream media is all about scoring, so I understand why "the world acknowledges Pierce as the superior player to Butler"...because they're uninformed.
Anyway, i've shown Pierce vs. Butler in this league (wash at best, maybe Butler win) Pierce vs. Butler this year IRL (Wash a best (for Pierce), i think Butler wins) and I showed Butler's stats last year WITH Arenas which clearly show he's a great player and is making significant improvements now.
AGAIN (since you didn't read it I guess), this is not in an attempt to change the trade at all, just a healthy discussion I'm attempting to have.
Thank you
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 13, 2008 10:53:38 GMT -5
And also, if I am personally judging a trade fair or unfair (too unfair), how does my own (you call it bias, I call it opinion) not come into the trade that I am judging at least a little?
But before you misunderstand that, I'd be fine with the two trading teams based purely on ratings, but the salaries in this trade, coupled with the draft pick, (also with the fact I DO favor Butler over Pierce) made me reject...
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Post by supremegm - MIA on Aug 13, 2008 10:56:13 GMT -5
no, i did not read it
but, it appears to me that the only reason you dont like the fact that charlotte gets a cheaper player and a pick is because of your own personal bias
Pierce put up 27 ppg in 05/06 before he was injured and before the big 3
if butler was on the celtics this season, he would only be getting 12-15 ppg, or maybe less since he would be riding the bench
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Post by Los Angeles Lakers on Aug 13, 2008 11:00:59 GMT -5
you can't blame NO for accepting quickly, you KNOW how dangerous LSD and PCP is, as well as Meth, so I guess NO was on it and got tired so he just wanted to accept quickly.
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 13, 2008 11:01:54 GMT -5
No. The reason, again (this is getting annoying and I won't post it again for you, 3 strikes and you're out) is that I felt it was too unfair for Charlotte to be clearing all this cap and getting the cheaper star as well as the pick. It was a combination of things.
Also, if you think Butler would ride the bench on ANY team in the NBA, including the Celtics, you're crazy. He might come off the bench for that CURRENT Celtics team IF the Big three were still on it, just because of positional needs, but he wouldn't "ride the bench."
Pierce is a better scorer, and since Butler hasn't really had a chance to prove it, Pierce is a better "clutch performer." Butler is a better rebounder. Butler is an equal passer. Butler shoots as well from 3pt. Butler shoots better from the floor and from the charity stripe. Butler is a better "stealer". and They're about equal in blocks. Pierce is just a bigger, more known name because he's in Boston and Caron is in Washington.
I REALLY don't see where Pierce is favored, as an OVERALL basketball player (not just scoring).
But that's my opinion.
Again, Rejected trade mostly based on all the salary that was cleared out while getting equal talent and also getting a draft pick.
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Post by supremegm - MIA on Aug 13, 2008 11:09:19 GMT -5
anyway, i dont feel that it is bad enough to decline, but you are entitled to your opinion... this is the reason there is more than 1 committee member
by the way, i dont like that you feel the need to attack my intelligence multiple times in your posts, it is a bitch move and very childish
but yea... im done on this thread
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Post by Philadelphia 76ers on Aug 13, 2008 11:23:28 GMT -5
First off to Miami, I'm currently not discussing the trade. I'm discussing Pierce vs. Butler. So here goes some more. 06/07 with Gilbert healthy Caron - 19.1, 7.4, 3.7, 2.1, .3 - 46% FG, 25% 3pt, 86% FT 07/08 w/o gilbert mostly Caron - 20.3, 6.7, 4.9, 2.2, .3 - 46% FG, 36% 3pt, 90% FT So...I once again see Caron as producing similar to Pierce, plus also developing a better 3pt shot. So he's getting better from already being as good, IMO. Pierce's 06/07 stats 25 PPG | 5.9 RPG | 4.1 APG However, his season was cut short so it's tough to compare stats from that season
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Post by Philadelphia 76ers on Aug 13, 2008 11:28:21 GMT -5
Statistically, Caron comes up as a slightly better passer, a better rebounder.
Pierce, though, is a far better scorer. Caron lacks the ability to consistently create his own shot -- one of Pierce's strengths. Pierce is also a far superior defender. Yes, Caron gets a lot of steals, and no, he doesn't gamble a lot (his steals are actually legit, unlike other players with high steals per game, like Arenas, Iverson, etc), but his man defense is average to slightly above average depending on who you ask. Paul also drives to the hoop much more often, getting to the line far more than Caron, who makes the mid-range jumpshot his weapon of choice. Pierce has some of the best footwork in the league which enables him to penetrate seemingly at will. Put Paul in the same situation as Butler in Washington and he puts up better numbers for sure IMO.
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Post by Los Angeles Clippers on Aug 13, 2008 11:33:20 GMT -5
Sorry Miami, I seriously said the same thing 3 times and either you just don't believe me, or your weren't reading and it was frustrating either way.
And Pierce's 06/07 who was on the team? Butler had Arenas and Jamison...and scored just 5 less I believe. Rebounded more, assists pretty similar considering Pierce was the main ball-handler, Arenas was not Butler on his team.
I do agree, Pierce creates his shot better, and has better footwork, and is a better SCORER. But OVERALL, I think they have a pretty similar effect on the game. Pierce can score more, but would need more shots to do it. Butler helps MORE from the FT line. Butler gets rebounds that help drive a fastbreak, leading to points. Butler will pick off more passes that lead to points.
I just think the two have a similar effect on the overall game. You don't score 20 ppg (like Butler does) w/o being a pretty damn good scorer.
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Post by Philadelphia 76ers on Aug 13, 2008 11:44:49 GMT -5
To each their own I guess. I just don't think Butler is on Pierce's level yet, maybe in a few years.
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